- 10:24 kensanata
- Do you have some code that will translate tables from the old markup to Creole markup?
- 10:24 nicferrier
- I don’t have a piece of code to do that table munging yet, in elisp or anything else. I think it will be relatively easy in elisp.
- 10:25 nicferrier
- I think it’s just a regex replace.
- 10:25 kensanata
- Yeah, we could try that.
- 10:25 nicferrier
- tables have to begin on column 0. any | on column 0 is a table.
- 10:25 nicferrier
- I presume that emacswiki is ALL || - is that right?
- 10:25 kensanata
- Yeah.
- 10:25 kensanata
- There will be mistakes, of course. <nowiki>, <pre>, {{{…}}} – all this markup prevents interpretation of markup.
- 10:26 nicferrier
- yay. coz it wouldn’t work otherwise.
- 10:26 nicferrier
- hmmm.
- 10:26 nicferrier
- yes.
- 10:26 nicferrier
- my creole parser can handle that probably…. but a simple converter could not.
- 10:27 nicferrier
- creole.el works things out into blocks and inline… so it would be able to do the conversion inside it ok.
- 10:27 nicferrier
- hmmm.
- 10:27 nicferrier
- what about oddmuse.pl? is there a way to do it if we work out the transform?
- 10:27 nicferrier
- I guess it’s hard.
- 10:27 kensanata
- Maybe.
- 10:28 kensanata
- Another option would be for you to check out a copy of the pages (using the git repo, for example), run whatever scripts you have, examine the output, fiddle with it until you’re happy, and then post all pages that have actually changed back to the wiki.
- 10:28 nicferrier
- so let me tell you what aidalgol and I had as an over all plan… that might be relevant.
- 10:28 nicferrier
- I have the git repo. I run elwiki (what we call it) on top of the git repo.
- 10:28 kensanata
- We could either prevent all edits in that timewindow, or, given a list of pages you want to change and a timewindow, we could then fix/merge any edit conflicts.
- 10:28 nicferrier
- it mostly works rendering wise except for things like this.
- 10:29 nicferrier
- we were going to get it live on elwiki.elnode.org
- 10:29 nicferrier
- and run in read only parallel mode until the rendering was good
- 10:29 kensanata
- Excellent idea.
- 10:29 nicferrier
- and we were hoping you’d help us do the sign off, get involved in the parallel run etc…
- 10:29 nicferrier
- we were hoping to get all the admins involved.
- 10:30 nicferrier
- I can’t see anyway to do this but very iteratively.
- 10:30 pessoa
- is the emacs wiki based on org mode?
- 10:30 nicferrier
- no.
- 10:31 kensanata
- Given that I’m happy with the status quo, I don’t think I’ll be doing much work, but I’m going to help wherever I can offer advice or change stuff to make it easier for you, that kind of stuff.
- 10:31 nicferrier
- so while creolizing oddmuse could be a step I don’t see it as necessary… and if it’s more work for you kensanata - I’d rather leave it.
- 10:31 kensanata
- Works for me. :)
- 10:31 nicferrier
- yeah, the thing is I really don’t want to take over emacswiki. I think you have done an amazing job with it.
- 10:31 nicferrier
- I do want the community to be able to hack on it easier though.
- 10:32 nicferrier
- so I’d be happy owning the code…. if you still owned the wiki.
- 10:32 nicferrier
- I am not a community leader.
- 10:32 nicferrier
- whereas you have done a fantastic job at that.
- 10:32 nicferrier
- I don’t think I understand the emacs community nearly as well as you.
- 10:32 kensanata
- Hm. I hesitate to do that. I can’t be sure you’ll be around in a few years, so I’d really have to get to know the code as well…
- 10:33 nicferrier
- right, I understand the problem.
- 10:33 nicferrier
- 1st thing - I’ve been around for 15 years, I’ve known of you all that time even if you haven’t known of me, I;ve been there.
- 10:33 kensanata
- I saw a similar thing happen at Meatball Wiki – a dude rewrote the code base to improve it, then left after a while, now it sucks.
- 10:33 nicferrier
- so I’m 42 and I might die I guess.
- 10:33 kensanata
- Hehe.
- 10:34 nicferrier
- wekk, I guess anyone could die.
- 10:34 kensanata
- Sure. I’ll turn 40 in a few months…
- 10:34 nicferrier
- but I’m not going anywhere.
- 10:34 kensanata
- sniff
- 10:34 nicferrier
- DUDE I ALREADY HAVE
- 10:34 nicferrier
- if there’s any sympathy it ought to be coming my way :-D
- 10:34 kensanata
- Everyone for himself!
- 10:34 nicferrier
- he he
- 10:34 nicferrier
- anyway
- 10:34 nicferrier
- that was point 1
- 10:35 nicferrier
- point 2 is that I’m trying to do this differently
- 10:35 nicferrier
- I deliberately did not write the wiki code.
- 10:35 nicferrier
- aidalgol did.
- 10:35 nicferrier
- and there are a bunch of elnode hackers on #emacs
- 10:35 nicferrier
- so if you weren’t interested in running the code there would be people around who were, if I died.
- 10:35 nicferrier
- or got so grumpy I left
- 10:36 nicferrier
- whatever
- 10:36 nicferrier
- of course - and let me stress this point - it would be IDEAL if you learned elnode and elwiki and were able to maintain it
- 10:36 nicferrier
- but you’d be first among equals
- 10:36 nicferrier
- because there would be others
- 10:36 nicferrier
- and point 3 is I am trying (and it’s kind of now so necessary to me I have to succeed) to start an emacs company.
- 10:37 nicferrier
- so we’ll actually have a company behind elnode, if not elwiki.
- 10:37 nicferrier
- so there. that is my mitigation for the problem you raise.
- 10:37 kensanata
- Having more people be involved is a good move.
- 10:37 kensanata
- I’ll have to get serious about moving my personal stuff away from the server.
- 10:37 nicferrier
- right. I can get a small group of hackers involved, I can do that. I can’t do what you do and get a large group to contribute to the wiki.
- 10:38 nicferrier
- I can provide servers for the new one.
- 10:38 nicferrier
- and give access to whoever.
- 10:38 kensanata
- That’d be excellent.
- 10:38 nicferrier
- and if I can’t I’m happy to do a kickstarter so that the community pays
- 10:38 nicferrier
- I’ll sort it out anyway
- 10:39 nicferrier
- we’ll just sync with git until you switch the DNS.
- 10:39 nicferrier
- it’s going to be up to you in the end I think.
- 10:39 nicferrier
- I think it should be.
- 10:39 kensanata
- No worries about that.
- 10:40 kensanata
- I resent people telling me what I should do, I don’t resent people picking up the slack and doing stuff themselves. :)
- 10:40 nicferrier
- right. me too. which is why I don’t want to tell you what to do.
- 10:40 nicferrier
- the whole wikemacs thing. what a debacle.
- 10:41 nicferrier
- and I was saying what I’m saying now back them.
- 10:41 nicferrier
- then
- 10:41 kensanata
- I wonder about smaller features. Does aidalgol or whoever writes the wiki code maintain a feature list and cross off stuff?
- 10:41 nicferrier
- it’s just taken me a year to persuade someone to write the wiki.
- 10:41 nicferrier
- kensanata: github issues
- 10:41 nicferrier
- it’s really disorganized atm because we were just getting to the state where “it works”
- 10:41 kensanata
- Ok.
- 10:41 nicferrier
- but of course there is a ton of stuff missing.
- 10:42 nicferrier
- we’ll have to organize that.
- 10:42 kensanata
- I was wondering about stuff like <include …> or <rss …>
- 10:42 kensanata
- We’d have to figure out whether it’s even worth keeping those around.
- 10:42 nicferrier
- but I don’t think it’s important right now… because we can do nearer the point where we have something credible.
- 10:42 nicferrier
- this is going to take all year.
- 10:42 nicferrier
- as to those, creole.el can be easily adapted to include whatever.
- 10:42 nicferrier
- creole.el can even include lisp
- 10:43 nicferrier
- and I was gonna jail the lisp in the manner of erbot.
- 10:43 kensanata
- Ok, that’s correct.
- 10:43 nicferrier
- I do want to get emacswiki.elnode.org going this month
- 10:43 nicferrier
- so people like this latest clown can see we are doing something
- 10:43 kensanata
- If you guys need a first glimpse, I guess Version would provide pointers…
- 10:43 nicferrier
- latest clown → http://wrttn.in/3afc42
- 10:44 nicferrier
- be warned - full of sweary ranting
- 10:44 nicferrier
- this person’s heart is in the right place at least.
- 10:44 nicferrier
- I think Batsov’s was too, he just couldn’t see the wood for the trees. It’s inexperience probably.
- 10:44 kensanata
- Wow, it gets off to a good ranting start!
- 10:45 nicferrier
- yeah. HE’S ANGRY
- 10:45 kusut
- newbie question: is the new wiki gonna be a dynamic site (user account, through-the-web editing) or static site builder?
- 10:45 nicferrier
- he’s also wrong
- 10:45 nicferrier
- we don’t have 2 places to put emacs content.
- 10:45 nicferrier
- we have 1.
- 10:45 nicferrier
- and also the place where batsov puts content.
- 10:45 nicferrier
- kusut: it’s dynamic right now, it’ll be dynamic in the future
- 10:46 nicferrier
- kusut: you can’t actually have a “static” wiki.
- 10:46 nicferrier
- wiki means you update it.
- 10:46 kensanata
- Haha, he writes as if he were my dark alter ego. :)
- 10:46 nicferrier
- the 300 guy (that’s a good epiphet for him - “give us your wiki!” “COME AND TAKE IT!!!”) mentions security which is amusing
- 10:47 nicferrier
- he thinks it’s bad that “ANYONE CAN ALTER IT”
- 10:47 nicferrier
- this is a decade of confluence talking
- 10:47 nicferrier
- anyway, the point is to move the envelope, push the train out of the station, get the ball rolling, take some moss off a rolling stone…
- 10:47 nicferrier
- whatever.
- 10:48 kusut
- nicferrier: yeah. static wiki would be editable via pull-request on repo
- 10:48 nicferrier
- kensanata: my approach to supporting functionality is to check in the emacswiki content with grep to see if things are being used.
- 10:49 nicferrier
- kusut: that’s NOT a wiki.
- 10:49 nicferrier
- that’s just some pages.
- 10:49 kensanata
- kusut: I think Stephan Monnier said he liked the current wiki because you don’t need an account -- just edit page and do it. That is a feature I really like.
- 10:49 nicferrier
- anyway. that’s just semantics.
- 10:50 nicferrier
- kensanata: if we find an exotic feature with grep, then we look at the last touched time and see whether it’s old
- 10:51 kensanata
- Hehe.
- 10:51 nicferrier
- if it’s really really old we might convert it (and not support ongoing conversion) or we might add support.
- 10:51 nicferrier
- I also have this plan for adding dynamic extensions. wanna hear it?
- 11:01 kensanata
- Sure.
- 11:03 nicferrier
- so, I’m going to put the erbot lisp jail into creole
- 11:03 nicferrier
- so you can just run lisp
- 11:04 nicferrier
- but I also thought that maybe we could have some sort of pattern that would cause a function definition to be looked up in the wiki
- 11:04 nicferrier
- so you could store pages like Lisp_MyFunc?
- 11:04 nicferrier
- and when you did that the wiki would expect to find a my-func in lisp defined in the page
- 11:04 nicferrier
- which it would eval in the jail
- 11:05 nicferrier
- and then a pattern something like <my-func …> would cause that function to be run
- 11:05 nicferrier
- so it would be totally dynamic.
- 11:06 kensanata
- It has hack value. I’m not sure what people will build with it, though. It’ll be an interesting experiment.
- 11:08 nicferrier
- well, I was wondering whether things like rss could be supported that way.
- 11:08 nicferrier
- it would be very emacsy.
- 11:08 nicferrier
- it’s also a bit like Trac.
- 11:08 nicferrier
- but better.
- 11:09 nicferrier
- so anyway, that’s the plan.
- 11:10 nicferrier
- up by the end of this month, or early next month on emacswiki.elnode.org
- 11:10 nicferrier
- long slow process of supporting all the stuff you have on emacswiki until you’re happy and all the other admins are happy
- 11:10 nicferrier
- and you can just switch over.
- 11:13 nicferrier
- can we publish this discussion on the elwiki page on emacswiki?
- 11:13 nicferrier
- anyone object?
- 11:14 kensanata
- Sure.
- 11:15 kensanata
- As for RSS: I found that there are quite a number of hits for the RSS feed. As these are expensive to produce using my code, I’ve resorted to rewriting HTTP requests for the standard formats such that they fetch a static file produced by a cron job.
- 11:16 nicferrier
- right. elnode would find it easier to cache that.
- 11:16 kensanata
- I’m also not sure how many people actually use some of the more advanced features…
- 11:16 nicferrier
- my approach would probably be to use nginx and have it upstream cache based on date
- 11:17 nicferrier
- and the elnode would check the mod time somehow as a fast operation.
- 11:17 kensanata
- That rant you linked to made me add this, btw: Gists
- 11:17 nicferrier
- or having elnode cache in memory would be another option.
- 11:17 nicferrier
- yeah, gists are good. supporting lots of pastebins would be good.
- 11:19 nicferrier
- we don’t have any rss yet… but our approach to history is to just use the git log
- 11:19 nicferrier
- there’s a markup specification in elwiki for the summary so that we can pull out what is a minor commit.
- 11:20 nicferrier
- so I think we can make all these with elisp transformations of git history logs.
- 11:20 nicferrier
- perhaps Sigma can help us with that 11:20 [nicferrier waves at Sigma]
- 11:21 kensanata
- :)
- 11:21 kensanata
- It’ll be an interesting year. :)
- 11:22 nicferrier
- hopefully.
- 11:22 nicferrier
- I really want to get to the point where we can federate it. now that would be a step change.
- 11:22 nicferrier
- that’s the real reason for having it in elisp.
- 11:26 nicferrier
- kensanata: did you add that gist feature while we talked?
- 11:26 kensanata
- Yeah.
- 11:26 kensanata
- It was trivial to do.
} elsif ($bol && m/\G(\< class="comment">;include\s+gist\s+"(https:\/\/gist\.github\.com\/[0-9]+)"\>[ \t]*\n?)/cgi) {
# <include gist "...">
return "<script src=\"$2.js\"></script>"
- 11:27 nicferrier
- got you.
- 11:28 nicferrier
- can I capture this conversation somewhere?
- 11:30 kensanata
- Should I repost it on Emacs Wiki?
- 11:30 nicferrier
- yeah, I think so.